I believe that Jesus existed, however, I do not believe he was the son of God.
That's a fairly common point of view. The problem is that Jesus claimed to be the son of God and claimed all the authorities of God Himself, so what you need to ask yourself is, "was Jesus lying, crazy, or is he God?" Those are the only 3 options. I've heard a lot of talk about him being a good person and even a profit, but those are impossible conclusions.
Christians gladly point out that there is ample evidence suggesting Jesus was the son of God. What is that evidence? Because, frankly, all I find is some pseudo-scientifical babble that supposedly proves his resurrection (which is fysically impossible)
Unfortunately, nothing historical can be 100% proven scientifically. The very crux of science hangs on repeatability, which discounts proving miracles for obvious reasons but also discounts historical events. The best we can do for evidence is by using a courtroom example. Lee Strobel's "The Case for Christ" does a pretty good job of examining this evidence, but I can give you a few snapshots from my memory of the book. Lawyers would use physical evidence (like the crosses and crucified bodies archaeoligists have uncovered that show the practice), documentation (such as the records of the non-Christian, Roman historian Josephus, who reports the death and burial of Jesus), eyewitnesses to Jesus after his death (of which there were more than 500 at a single time), credibility of those witnesses (their willingness to be tortured and killed for their testimony). There is a ton more on that, but more important is the evidence of the Trinity's interaction in our lives today (http://everystudent.com/~JeffGrant).
Also, if this "Son of God" was so peaceful and promised us a better world, why then did the Romans crucify him? Crucifixion was a punishment only reserverd for violent revolutionaries (f.ex. Spartacus) and murderers.
Are you aking if Jesus was peaceful, or questioning the fact of his crucifiction? The latter is recorded in Roman history. The former is easily enough explained by John 19:4-16. Many revolutionaries were crucified by the Romans for claiming to be the Messiah. It was the threat of the "King of the Jews" that the Romans were concerned about. Pilot (the Roman in who eventually ordered his execution) told the people that Jesus had done nothing to deserve death, but the Jewish officials persuaded him that if he didn’t condemn Jesus, he would be committing treason himself since Jesus claimed to be a king. For the Jewish leaders, Jesus had committed a crime by calling himself the Son of God which would be blasphemy from anyone but him and punishable by death.
you'd think the Romans, who were very passionate about noting down the facts of history, would have written something about those miracles...
No Roman historians were 1st person witnesses to the miracles, as far as I know. The Romans were, for the most part, skeptics. There are recordings of his death and his body’s disappearance are recorded, but any records of Jesus’ miracles would have been considered “Christian writing”, so probably wouldn’t have been included with their other documents. Most of this is a speculative comment, since I have not done deep research into Roman historical documents. Have you found that there are no records on miracles?
Resurrection from the grave is also historically impossible, since crucifixion "victims" were not interred at all, but rather left to rot.
It was the Jewish custom to bury the dead, not the Roman. This is documented in John 19:38 and also by Josephus, the Roman historian.
There is actually more historic and scientific evidence that Jesus was NOT the person that was described in the bible, but rather some Che Guevara of Antiquity...
I would certainly like to see your sources for such evidence. Please, tell me how you came to that conclusion.
So I would like to know what is this scientific evidence that proves al non-christians wrong...
I would be happy to examine any evidence against Christianity, as I have investigated the “Tomb of Jesus” claims and the “Da Vinci Code” claims. To date, however, the archaeological, scientific, and historical evidence has supported Biblical claims to the point that the British Museum (one of the most traditionally atheistic establishments in the world) actually displays Bible verses with their exhibits (click here to check it out).
Kind regards,
Patrick,
Belgium
PS: For the record, I am not an atheist, but an Odinist that is tired of seeing European people and their American cousins deny the faith of their ancestors, for a "peaceful" faith that was forced upon their ancestors with huge amounts of violence ( Charlemagne's persecutions of the "pagans", the Danish genocide, ...)
That is very interesting, Patrick! I would dearly enjoy hearing more about your belief in Odinism. I wasn't aware that the worship of the Norse Pantheon was still practiced. Do you feel that there is more evidence of their existence than that of Jesus?
~Jeff
Monday, April 23, 2007
"Why would it be better to invest myself in a set of beliefs than to follow my own internal motivation?" ~Mark
"We as humans derive our values and personal motivations from adverse sources. Some of us choose to invest our faith in a set of beliefs, while others prefer a psychologically egoistic paradigm.
What we gain from our experiences and the knowledge that is socially imparted to us, is a perceived conception of reality. This differs for every person and is fundamental to any legitimate social theory. From this perception, we can reasonably decipher our personal values and beliefs. This exists on a purely individualistic basis.
So we are presented with a choice: to believe in God or not. The answer to this question can be influenced by many people and ideas. Depending upon the frame of reference, it will be perceived as correct by some and wrong by others. Ultimately the decision becomes self evident. We invest ourselves in an externally derived set of beliefs, or our internally derived ones.
So what kind of calculus is involved in that decision?I'll tell you mine at the moment: We are, at our very core, rational beings. We would not be capable of any abstract thought if that were not the case. I feel that it is more rational and pragmatic to approach life in the context of self interest [happiness], justice, benevolence and public utility. We as individuals can be internally motivated to practice these values, completely independent of other ideological influences. Investing faith blindly in something as exigent as your approach to life seems unreasonable. So I can't see the value in investing myself in a set of beliefs that are fundamentally dogmatic.
My question is, why would it be better to invest myself in a set of beliefs?"
~Mark
Thank you so much for your question. I really appreciate your thought process, and I’m glad you are searching for your own answers.
I agree that we are created with the ability to reason. We are also created with emotions and complex psychological processes that have nothing to do with logic. We are also influenced, as you said, by an entire set of external influences that are different for each person. Hence, based on life experience, emotional reactions, and psychological predispositions, individuals can use logic to come to different conclusions.
One problem with trying to use an internally derived set of values is that there is essentially no standard of right and wrong. You as an individual may have certain morals, but what do you base them on? Do you go by what feels good? What about someone who feels good when he/she molests a child or hurts another person? Does that make it right for them?
Another thing to consider is that self-interest (personal happiness) can conflict with justice, benevolence or public utility. What’s best for the public may be to throw yourself on a bomb in order to protect 50 other people…but that’s certainly not best for personal comfort and enjoyment. Also, some think justice involves vengeance, but do they take benevolence into account?
I think we had a very clear example this past Monday of what can happen when an individual’s personal value system leads him to chaos and destruction. This young man who killed 32 people at Virginia Tech apparently believed in what he was doing and felt he was carrying out justice against a society that had wronged him.
Nobody in their right mind would commend him for following his heart and doing what he felt he needed to do. On the other hand, how can anyone say that truth is relative and yet blame this man for what he did? Nobody can say that everyone has a right to create their own morals, then complain when somebody’s morals are “bad” or “incorrect” or in disagreement with somebody else’s. If there is no standard, there is no standard. Period.
I believe that God imparts a set of standards for good reason. It is not a bunch of rules inflicted because He is a party-pooper and wants us to be uptight and miserable. We are created in His image, and something within us longs for what is right. That is why most humans do feel good and right when they are doing what aligns with God’s will.
If you’ll allow me to indulge in a little personal history, I’ll tell you why I believe that God simply wants the best for us and from us when He asks certain standards of us. I grew up in the church and always tried to do what I was told. It was mostly a matter of wanting to stay out of trouble and to be commended by my elders. I believed in God, but I thought of Him more as a domineering father of some kind—a “big brother” in the sky who was watching everything and just waiting to critique people and be disappointed. When I got to college, I was the stereotype of someone who got away from mommy and daddy for the first time and decided to do all the things I was never allowed to do. I was doing whatever I wanted, whenever I felt like it. I was in control and “having fun.” Funny thing was, I was miserable. I was hurting my body and damaging my heart. I came to realize that God’s “rules” that I was running from were guidelines that would keep me safe from myself and actually give me the freedom to be truly happy.
More importantly, I finally came to see that God is not about rules. I fully gave my heart to Jesus when I figured out that He wanted to love me and be involved in my life. He was chasing me because He wanted me as a beloved daughter, not an obedient robot. Once I put my trust in Him, I became more free to discover who I am—not less free, not bound to a set of unattainable standards, not brainwashed. I’ve heard someone compare this relationship to rock climbing: you need to be tied to a support system if you want to be the most free to explore and climb around. You are timid and limited if you are on your own, because you could slip and fall and die so easily. But tethered to the Rock, you are secure and free because you have something to fall back on. You have limits for your own safety and wellbeing.
I’m sorry this became longer than I intended. I hope this has been helpful in answering your question. Above all else, I want you to know that for me it has nothing to do with a set of beliefs or rules. Yes, I do find life to be more fulfilling and joyful within God’s standards. But what it comes down to is the fact that the God of the universe is pursuing a relationship with me; and with YOU. Did you know that He treasures your heart and wants to love you? That is why He sent Jesus to die for you. He already paid the way for you by dying on the cross, and all you have to do is believe in Him and ask Him to be your savior too. I will include the link to our website that will walk you through it if you want to make this decision. http://www.everystudent.com/features/gettingconnected.html
I will be praying for you as you are thinking about and processing these things. Please feel free to write back if you’d like to talk more about this or any other topic. May God bless you as you seek Truth!
Your friend,
Karen
P.S. I wanted to include this excerpt from C.S. Lewis that my husband found. I read it after I wrote the above email, so I would use my own words instead of trying to adapt someone else’s thoughts. I thought it might be of interest to you.
“'Can’t you lead a good life without believing in Christianity?' This is the question on which I have been asked to write, and straight away, before I begin trying to answer it, I have a comment to make. The question sounds as if it were asked by a person who said to himself, ‘ I don’t care whether Christianity is in fact true or not. I’m not interested in finding out whether the real universe is more like what the Christians say than what the Materialists say. All I’m interested in is leading a good life. I’m going to choose beliefs not because I think them true but because I find them helpful.’ Now frankly, I find it hard to sympathize with this state of mind. One of the things that distinguishes man from the other animals is that he wants to know things, wants to find out what reality is like, simply for the sake of knowing. When that desire is completely quenched in anyone I think he has become something less than human. As a matter of fact, I don’t believe any of you have really lost that desire. More probably, foolish preachers, by always telling you how much Christianity will help you and how good it is for society, have actually led you to forget that Christianity is not a patent medicine. Christianity claims to give an account of facts—to tell you what the real universe is like. Its account of the universe may be true, or it may not, and once the question is really before you, then your natural inquisitiveness must make you want to know the answer. If Christianity is untrue, then no honest man will want to believe it, however helpful it might be: if it is true, every honest man will want to believe it, even if it gives him no help at all.”
What we gain from our experiences and the knowledge that is socially imparted to us, is a perceived conception of reality. This differs for every person and is fundamental to any legitimate social theory. From this perception, we can reasonably decipher our personal values and beliefs. This exists on a purely individualistic basis.
So we are presented with a choice: to believe in God or not. The answer to this question can be influenced by many people and ideas. Depending upon the frame of reference, it will be perceived as correct by some and wrong by others. Ultimately the decision becomes self evident. We invest ourselves in an externally derived set of beliefs, or our internally derived ones.
So what kind of calculus is involved in that decision?I'll tell you mine at the moment: We are, at our very core, rational beings. We would not be capable of any abstract thought if that were not the case. I feel that it is more rational and pragmatic to approach life in the context of self interest [happiness], justice, benevolence and public utility. We as individuals can be internally motivated to practice these values, completely independent of other ideological influences. Investing faith blindly in something as exigent as your approach to life seems unreasonable. So I can't see the value in investing myself in a set of beliefs that are fundamentally dogmatic.
My question is, why would it be better to invest myself in a set of beliefs?"
~Mark
Thank you so much for your question. I really appreciate your thought process, and I’m glad you are searching for your own answers.
I agree that we are created with the ability to reason. We are also created with emotions and complex psychological processes that have nothing to do with logic. We are also influenced, as you said, by an entire set of external influences that are different for each person. Hence, based on life experience, emotional reactions, and psychological predispositions, individuals can use logic to come to different conclusions.
One problem with trying to use an internally derived set of values is that there is essentially no standard of right and wrong. You as an individual may have certain morals, but what do you base them on? Do you go by what feels good? What about someone who feels good when he/she molests a child or hurts another person? Does that make it right for them?
Another thing to consider is that self-interest (personal happiness) can conflict with justice, benevolence or public utility. What’s best for the public may be to throw yourself on a bomb in order to protect 50 other people…but that’s certainly not best for personal comfort and enjoyment. Also, some think justice involves vengeance, but do they take benevolence into account?
I think we had a very clear example this past Monday of what can happen when an individual’s personal value system leads him to chaos and destruction. This young man who killed 32 people at Virginia Tech apparently believed in what he was doing and felt he was carrying out justice against a society that had wronged him.
Nobody in their right mind would commend him for following his heart and doing what he felt he needed to do. On the other hand, how can anyone say that truth is relative and yet blame this man for what he did? Nobody can say that everyone has a right to create their own morals, then complain when somebody’s morals are “bad” or “incorrect” or in disagreement with somebody else’s. If there is no standard, there is no standard. Period.
I believe that God imparts a set of standards for good reason. It is not a bunch of rules inflicted because He is a party-pooper and wants us to be uptight and miserable. We are created in His image, and something within us longs for what is right. That is why most humans do feel good and right when they are doing what aligns with God’s will.
If you’ll allow me to indulge in a little personal history, I’ll tell you why I believe that God simply wants the best for us and from us when He asks certain standards of us. I grew up in the church and always tried to do what I was told. It was mostly a matter of wanting to stay out of trouble and to be commended by my elders. I believed in God, but I thought of Him more as a domineering father of some kind—a “big brother” in the sky who was watching everything and just waiting to critique people and be disappointed. When I got to college, I was the stereotype of someone who got away from mommy and daddy for the first time and decided to do all the things I was never allowed to do. I was doing whatever I wanted, whenever I felt like it. I was in control and “having fun.” Funny thing was, I was miserable. I was hurting my body and damaging my heart. I came to realize that God’s “rules” that I was running from were guidelines that would keep me safe from myself and actually give me the freedom to be truly happy.
More importantly, I finally came to see that God is not about rules. I fully gave my heart to Jesus when I figured out that He wanted to love me and be involved in my life. He was chasing me because He wanted me as a beloved daughter, not an obedient robot. Once I put my trust in Him, I became more free to discover who I am—not less free, not bound to a set of unattainable standards, not brainwashed. I’ve heard someone compare this relationship to rock climbing: you need to be tied to a support system if you want to be the most free to explore and climb around. You are timid and limited if you are on your own, because you could slip and fall and die so easily. But tethered to the Rock, you are secure and free because you have something to fall back on. You have limits for your own safety and wellbeing.
I’m sorry this became longer than I intended. I hope this has been helpful in answering your question. Above all else, I want you to know that for me it has nothing to do with a set of beliefs or rules. Yes, I do find life to be more fulfilling and joyful within God’s standards. But what it comes down to is the fact that the God of the universe is pursuing a relationship with me; and with YOU. Did you know that He treasures your heart and wants to love you? That is why He sent Jesus to die for you. He already paid the way for you by dying on the cross, and all you have to do is believe in Him and ask Him to be your savior too. I will include the link to our website that will walk you through it if you want to make this decision. http://www.everystudent.com/features/gettingconnected.html
I will be praying for you as you are thinking about and processing these things. Please feel free to write back if you’d like to talk more about this or any other topic. May God bless you as you seek Truth!
Your friend,
Karen
P.S. I wanted to include this excerpt from C.S. Lewis that my husband found. I read it after I wrote the above email, so I would use my own words instead of trying to adapt someone else’s thoughts. I thought it might be of interest to you.
“'Can’t you lead a good life without believing in Christianity?' This is the question on which I have been asked to write, and straight away, before I begin trying to answer it, I have a comment to make. The question sounds as if it were asked by a person who said to himself, ‘ I don’t care whether Christianity is in fact true or not. I’m not interested in finding out whether the real universe is more like what the Christians say than what the Materialists say. All I’m interested in is leading a good life. I’m going to choose beliefs not because I think them true but because I find them helpful.’ Now frankly, I find it hard to sympathize with this state of mind. One of the things that distinguishes man from the other animals is that he wants to know things, wants to find out what reality is like, simply for the sake of knowing. When that desire is completely quenched in anyone I think he has become something less than human. As a matter of fact, I don’t believe any of you have really lost that desire. More probably, foolish preachers, by always telling you how much Christianity will help you and how good it is for society, have actually led you to forget that Christianity is not a patent medicine. Christianity claims to give an account of facts—to tell you what the real universe is like. Its account of the universe may be true, or it may not, and once the question is really before you, then your natural inquisitiveness must make you want to know the answer. If Christianity is untrue, then no honest man will want to believe it, however helpful it might be: if it is true, every honest man will want to believe it, even if it gives him no help at all.”
Monday, April 9, 2007
"Does Galatians 6 (2 & 5) contradict itself?" ~Catie
Without diving into any commentaries, my understanding of these two verses is found in the verses surrounding them. The first (“Gal 6:2 Help carry one another's burdens”) refers to Christian brothers helping each other by holding one another accountable. The second (“Gal 6:5 For each of you have to carry your own load.”) talks of examining or judging your own work rather than comparing it to that of others. In other words, rather than saying "help each other out, but it's every man for himself" it's actually saying, "help your brothers, but don't compare yourself to them and don't overburden others while you refuse to pull your own weight." What do you think? Do you agree, given the context?
“What about all the people who died before Jesus came?” ~Catie
I’m not sure I can give you a 100% sure answer on this, but I’ll do my best:
Acts 17:29-31 hints that God did not hold people accountable to the truth they had not yet received.
Romans 4:3 says that Abraham was considered righteous because he believed God.
Romans 1:20 says that God revealed himself through nature from the beginning, so that no one has an excuse to say “I didn’t know.”
Finally, God set up a way for people’s sins to be forgiven through sacrifices, but it had to be done regularly, while Hebrews explains that Jesus was the final sacrifice once for all. People didn’t have the entire Bible until about 300 AD I believe, but they had the Old Testament and the prophets, and after Jesus they had the disciples and their epistles (just not formed into one volume).
Acts 17:29-31 hints that God did not hold people accountable to the truth they had not yet received.
Romans 4:3 says that Abraham was considered righteous because he believed God.
Romans 1:20 says that God revealed himself through nature from the beginning, so that no one has an excuse to say “I didn’t know.”
Finally, God set up a way for people’s sins to be forgiven through sacrifices, but it had to be done regularly, while Hebrews explains that Jesus was the final sacrifice once for all. People didn’t have the entire Bible until about 300 AD I believe, but they had the Old Testament and the prophets, and after Jesus they had the disciples and their epistles (just not formed into one volume).
"According to 2 Cor 5:10, will Christians be punished at judgment day?" ~Catie
The judgment of the believer's works, not sins, is in question here. The sins have been atoned for, and are "remembered no more forever" (Heb_10:17) but every work must come into judgment, (Mat_12:36); (Rom_14:10); (Gal_6:7); (Eph_6:8); (Col_3:24); (Col_3:25). The result is "reward" or "loss" (of the reward), "but he himself shall be saved". (1Co_3:11-15). (I got this from Scofield's commentary in the e-sword.com website. It's a great tool to look up info on any passage in just about any translation: http://www.e-sword.net/. Another good site is http://www.biblegateway.com/).
I think it's the last passage that explains this best. I’m not sure exactly what that will look like, and it doesn’t sound like it’ll be a whole lot of fun (at least when I think of the crap I’ve done wrong), but we know at least that this is not a Heaven/Hell issue. Also, the parable of the talents (Matthew 25:14-30) shows us what we are working toward on that day: “Well done, good and faithful servant! You have been faithful with a few things; I will put you in charge of many things. Come and share your master's happiness!”
I think it's the last passage that explains this best. I’m not sure exactly what that will look like, and it doesn’t sound like it’ll be a whole lot of fun (at least when I think of the crap I’ve done wrong), but we know at least that this is not a Heaven/Hell issue. Also, the parable of the talents (Matthew 25:14-30) shows us what we are working toward on that day: “Well done, good and faithful servant! You have been faithful with a few things; I will put you in charge of many things. Come and share your master's happiness!”
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